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January 17, 2008

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n

I'm wondering if there is any obstetrician out there who can tell us whether this is really so, that males come out face down, and females face up? I've always wondered about that.

Litvak

"The simplest way that I venture to explain it is as the gemorah saying that women are more spiritual than men. A girl from birth is looking to Heaven but not so the boy."

Why not use Rashi instead of creating a new pshat ? Perhaps there is a reason that meforshim do not give the explanation you offer ?

Rashi (in Sotah) connects this to the direction they face in tashmish. The gemara explains re that that males face down, because they face the earth from which they were created and female faces up, towards a human being, which they were created from.

I think we have been through this before.

The selective citations are misleading. The fact is that the Maharal in numerous places attributes higher spirituality to the male nature.

While Lubavitch and some others are pushing this new PC theology alleging that women are superior to men, it is problematic.

The sefer 'Male and female He created them' by Yisroel ben Reuven (Targum Press) is an excellent source to understand the traditional Jewish position here and avoid the new PC theology. However popular the pandering to feminist sensibilities might be nowadays, we are not allowed to falsify the Torah for some passing fad.

avakesh

I must clarify what I assumed was self understood. What Rashi brings is not how children actually come out, neither, as far as we know, has this changed in recent time. As such, the passage calls out for a non-literal interpretation.

As far as female spirituality, yes, male gives and female receives and in this way male is higher than female. However, in another sense, ability to receive puts a woman on a higher level than man vis-s-vis the Ultimate Giver. As you go higher, female position becomes higher so that on the highest levels (in Kesser), female and male spiritual elements are standing side by side. In Niddah 45 woman has more understanding than man.

'Male and female He created them' by Yisroel ben Reuven (Targum Press) is a polemical work. It does a service but does not aim to present the whole picture.

Litvak

"I must clarify what I assumed was self understood. What Rashi brings is not how children actually come out, neither, as far as we know, has this changed in recent time. As such, the passage calls out for a non-literal interpretation."

I don't understand. If you say that it means that females are more
'spiritual', then how would the midwives see that ?

"As far as female spirituality, yes, male gives and female receives and in this way male is higher than female. However, in another sense, ability to receive puts a woman on a higher level than man vis-s-vis the Ultimate Giver."

That (mashpia vs. mekabel) is only one aspect of a complex issue. The matter needs to be examined comprehensively, not with sound-bites.

"In Niddah 45 woman has more understanding than man."

Binah is not everything.

"'Male and female He created them' by Yisroel ben Reuven (Targum Press) is a polemical work. It does a service but does not aim to present the whole picture."

It is a much needed work. It provides a much-needed alternative to all the feminist propaganda posing as Orthodox Judaism out there. It is a lengthy and comprehensive sefer. Those interested in the inyan should look at it themselves and not let someone try to discourage them from doing so by labeling it as 'polemical'. If you want to debate the issues, fine, but to try to marginalize an excellent sefer by labelling it 'polemical' is not the way to go.

Also, perhaps it's actually the other side that is 'polemical' and Ben Reuven's sefer is just a necessary response ?

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