Pitfalls of Kiruv

The kiruv movement has been an unquestioned blessing. Thousands of enthusiastic seekers have joined our communities over the past several decades, bringing with them a spirit of renewal and inspiration that challenges our rote performance and frozen spirituality. As someone who is a part of this world and actively teaches baalei teshuva, I appreciate its accomplishments. However, it has also brought communal challenges. As one kiruv professional has said, frumkeit is and will always remain for a baal teshuva, a coat. No matter how well fitting and comfortable a favourite coat can be, it always remains a coat. In theory, at least, it can always be taken off. For a person born and bred in Torah, Judaism is and always will be his skin. He can no more take it off than a man can shed his skin.

We now, in some places, have entire communities largely made up of baalei teshuva. Under the surface, there fester serious problems. They range from underground survival of secular attitudes to shallow understanding of the Torah, to serious psychological imperfections that are exacerbated by the wrenching effects of adjustments to the Torah lifestyle and abandonment of family and friends. There are shalom bais problems from incompatibility of backgrounds and levels, and rampant deficiency in Torah knowledge. There are few learned laymen in these palces, for becoming a Talmid Chacham requires great sacrifices for many years. On the other hand, many individuals are affluent, owing to their professional training. As sdoctors, attorneys, professors etc. they exert an influence on the entire community. Unlike certain chassidic communities, it is almost impossible to find men of dyed through and through yiddishkeit. Instead one finds shallowness, Gedolim worship and implausible compromises in observance.

I rememer how I was warned by a Rav, when moving into one such community, "Not everyone who wears a black hat here is a ben Torah". I found this warning to be very true. I encountered video rentals, childrearing habits that I couldn't believe, uninformed kashrus violations (a well meaning man, a tsaddik in many ways who did not recognize that there is an issue in using the same oven for milchigs and fleishigs) and other surprising deviation. There was an otherwise black hat family, for example, that induced their teenage yeshiva bochur son to volunteer for the summer in a non-Jewish camp in which a family member worked and also in a local public library. The thought of a teenage boy in the summer in that environement turns my stomach but these well meaning people saw not even a glimmer of a problem with it.

It is not for nothing that most chassidic groups view the kiruv movement with suspicion.

A reasonable historic parrallel would be the Spanish Anusim. Thousands of wonderful, self-sacrificing Jews streamed to Amsterdam and Turkey, seeking authentic Judaism and spiritual renewal. They created wonderful communities and left us treasured seforim. At the same time, it is among these seekers that Shabsai Tsvi found his most devoted followers, it was this soil that produced Spinoza, Uriel DaCosta, and, as Gershom Scholem pointed out, it is the descendents of these families that gave rise to the Reform movement some time later.

I am not wise enough to weigh different considerations and "hidden things". I do, however, respectfully suggest that we be aware of potential pitfalls with kiruv and that we give some attention to broadening and solidifying the committment of even established Baalei Teshuva - afer all we are all in the process of Teshuvan at all times, and there is no insult in becoming deeper and broader.

An issue of the Jewish Observer that implicitly raised these issues, here, http://www.shemayisrael.co.il/jewishobserver/archives/dec/index.htm

Comments

[A Yid]

Definitely kiruv has its potential problems that have to be addressed. But statement that "most chassidic groups view the kiruv movement with suspicion" is not speaking in their favor, because they ignore the basic teachings of the Baal Shem Tov, which they seemingly "forgot". The problems in kiruv doesn't mean that it has to be avoided. This is pure anti-Baal Shem Tov. They have to be addressed. You are right, that many don't change enough internally. External change is a smallest part, while internal one has to be the main. Here is apparent the immense lack of real chasidic yeshivoys for baaley tshuvo. Who makes them except Chabad?! Litvaks in oyr someyach are thoroughly misnagdic. And that approach can't teach the depth of Yiddihkayt by any means.

The only one such yeshiva was opened recently - "Derech haMelech". Let's hope this beginning will encourage others to work on this.

[upset]

What is wrong with using the same oven for milchig and fleishig? Cover both pans when in the oven in the same time. Does the oven absorb the vapors? I was taught by a posek in the frummest high school that it is sufficient to make sure the oven is clean and then use it for the other, meat or milk as today we cook our food in pans and not on the racks.
Are you sure you are not a decendant of baalei teshuvah?

[spg]

A noted posek rules that a modern oven can be used for milchik, and then right afterward, for fleishik, or vice versa.

[mevaseretzion]

I am also troubled, but not by baalei teshuva. The attitude of this post, that prevails in many frum from birth people, is one of the most disgusting and elitist things to ever come out of Torah Jews.

It is stated, without exception, that 'torah will always remain a coat to the baal teshuva', while for the Frum from birth, it is in his skin. Need I remind you how many frum people go off the derech every year? How many 'heimishe' chassidim and yeshivish people regularly participate in far worse activities than renting movies? On the other side, I know many ba'alei teshuva that put the frum from birth people to shame in their shemiras hatorah.

This idea that somehow, our religious experience is more fundamental and honest is absolutely contradicted by all torah sources. "A ba'al teshuva occupies a higher position than a Perfect Tzaddik". Would you say that Avraham Avinu, not only the first Baal Teshuva, but the first Ger as well (see chagiga 3a), wore his faith in God as a 'coat'?

Many frum Jews I know keep what they do because that's how they were raised. If they were Christians, they would keep that faith the same way. A ba'al teshuva, on the other hand, goes against all his social tendencies, and changes his whole life for God.

The temerity of a frum Jew, even a tzadik, to entertain the possibility that a true ba'al teshuva is somehow lacking in any way when compared with frum from birth is a real aveira.

Perhaps there could have been some truth in this article if it had recognized the variation that exists among different ba'alei teshuva, just as there is variation between every human being.

This article is a great example of why you, avakesh, should never have anything to do with ba'alei teshuva. Leave kiruv to people who can truly respect Jews who concsiously choose God.

[an FFB]

I'm not certain i agree with the point of this post, however in response to mevaseretzion, the gamara abt a baal teshuva holding a higher place does not refer to a BT as we use the term. Our "BT"s are most likely Tinnokos Shenishba, not truly baalei teshuva, as they never did anything wrong. It refers to an FFB who is Over on an Aveira and then repents. Either way they do deserve our respect. On the other hand to say there are no issues with the BT community is just as blind as saying there are no problems in the FFB community. We need to be frank and honest and face all the issues. Although obviously we must first look to ourselves and our homes where we have the most control.
Although i guess that's why we always look at the problems of others, FFBs, BTs, Black Hatters, Tziyoni. It's easier if it doesn't require anything of us.

[mevaseretzion]

FFB, I never said there are no problems. I said the categorical attempt to paint BTs one way, is stupid.

Your point about the geamara only strengthens my point (even though I am not sure you are right.).

Anyway, Good Shabbos,FFB, I gotta go.

Avakesh, you have no idea how much damage your post does.

[Shmilda]

While I agree with your general point, that many BT's need guidance due to their lack of background, I have a number of qualms with many of your specifics.

How exactly are descendants of the Spanish/Portuguese Maranos responsible for Reform? It's a movement which started in Germany, spread to Hungary and Eastern Europe, and now is prevalent among US ashkenazim.

"I rememer how I was warned by a Rav, when moving into one such community, "Not everyone who wears a black hat here is a ben Torah". I found this warning to be very true. I encuntered video rentals, childrearing habits that I couldn't believe, uninformed ksshrus violations (a well meaning man, a tsaddik in many ways who did not recognize that there is an issue in using the same oven for milchigs and fleishigs) and other surprising deviation. There was an oterwise black hat family, for example, that induced their teenage yeshiva bochur son to volunteer for the summer in a non-jewish camp in which a family member worked and also in a local public library. The thought of a teenage boy in the summer in that environement turns my stomach but these well meaning people saw not even a glimmer of a problem with it."

Aside from the obvious point that the hat does not make the ben torah, one need not seek out BT's for these behaviors. I know plenty of FFB's who rent videos and have only one oven, and I certainly wouldn't impugn their frumkeit because of it.

Most importantly, may I recommend running a spell check before publishing. While I am not familiar with Typepad, I know that Blogger has one built in, and they are freely available as extensions to both IE and Firefox.

[avakesh]

First of all, I apologize to those whose feelings I hurt.

Please be assured that I do not look down at BT in any way. I respect sincere BT's and consider them an inspiration and in all ways equal or better than myself. In fact, you could say that I am myself one, although from a young age and for a long time. Everything I said in this post is based on personal experience.

At the same time, there is definitely room for considering the long term impact of the BT Movement on the internal cohesiveness and ideological purity of our communities. If we do not speak of this, serious future problems may result, including uninformed blanket rejection of BT's and lack of Ahavas Yisroel.

Re: Anusim and the originators of the Reform Movement: Scholem writes (in the Messianic Idea...), "I shall endeavor to show that the nihilism of the Sabbatian and Frankist movements, with its doctrine so profoundly shocking to the Jewish conception of things that the violation of the Torah could become its true fulfillment . . . , was a dialectical outgrowth of the belief in the Messiahship of Sabbatai Zevi, and that this nihilism, in turn, helped pave the way for the Haskalah and the reform movement of the nineteenth century, once its original religious impulse was exhausted". In fact, some of the families active at the beginnings of the Reform Movement are now known to have been secret Sabbateans and of Marrano lineage.

For a review of the issues of milchig and fleishigs in the same oven, see http://www.chabadtalk.com/go/ph/ph-8.htm

[evanstonjew]

Scholem has been shown to be wrong on this pt. I believe by Jacob Katz. His views on the origins of reform are not generally accepted and no serious evidence has been forthcoming. Frankist communities, children of Reb Yonason did not become reform.

I also didn't like the tone of the rest of your essay and believe you are way out of line and snobish too. I agree with mevaseretzion.

[Long time bt]

You make some petty, trivial complaints, some true, some false.

There's much more to write about the dysfunction in much of the FFB world: unconscionably high yeshiva tuition, rampant materialism, sex abuse in the yeshivas, Chareidi poverty and financial corruption are a few examples.

Almost all the BTs I know are nsincerely frum, have jobs, raise children, and perhaps most important, have pleasant personalities. They're funny and make for good company.

You, on the hand, are a snob. You're also suspect as a moshiachist because you've provided a link to Chabad, which is not normative Judaism. I too doubt that you belong in kiruv.

[barry]

While you may quibble with the tone, etc. of the post. The underlying issue is a significant one and deserves honest and respectful discussion. Their exist communities that have a preponderance of BT families who fit this exact description. Most of them never had the benefit of serious Torah study (while, of course, there are exceptions - MOST - at a maximum, spent a year in a BT yeshiva in Israel. Coupled with an understandable absence of mesorah from their childhood - they really are lost in many ways (as alluded to in this post). I recently wanted to tell a prominent RY of one of the famous BT yeshivas - "please stop sending your students to "X" community", since the aggregation of all these families creates it own sub-culture that I think is not beneficial.

In defense of the post – none of this diminishes the awe inspiring choices these people/families have made. It simply addresses an issue worthy of discussion. The challenges FFB families are experiencing is also worthy of thoughtful dialogue. The two, however, are not mutually exclusive.

What really needs to be done is set up a serious mentoring program to help BT families as they continue to progress throughout their lives and be there for them. The cynic in me says that this is not as easy to raise funds for and will therefore not happen. To my eye, too many kiruv organizations view the people they "make frum" as a "notch on their belt" and are less concerned with the long-term success and integration into the community.

Let's put aside the knee jerk criticism of the post and focus on the real issues it raises.

[chochem]

The best possible scenario, is that BTs should be part of FFB communities but the rub is that they are not always made to feel welcome by the (sometimes) hidden attitude that they are going to adversely affect those around them. This is why they have a hard time getting their kids into yeshivos and sems. At another level FFBs are uncomfortable around them because they are so wide-eyed and sincere and refuse to shmooze loshon hora during chazoras hashatz no matter how geshmak! obviously if they are in enclaves without input from those more learned, they lack role models and will end up very quirky indeed.

[avakesh]

Important points, all noted with humility.

There is really not much for me to add except to echo the calls to focus on the issues. Inasmuch as the post came across as snobbish, uncaring or superficial, I hope to learn from that. Perhaps my next post on the problems of FFB's (if I only dare to do this again) will gain from this experience.

[Noclue]

One born and bred in Torah can no more take it off than he can take off his skin.

Sorry. Three hundred years ago, the vast majority of the Ashkenazic Jewish world was Shomer Shabbos and Mitzvos.

Today, the vast
majority of their descendants are not observant or have intermarried and are not even Jewish. These include many descendants of Gedolai Torah.

The persons who broke the chain include many of the brightest students of the best Yeshivot in Europe, prominently including the Slobodka yeshiva.

I am sure that you can find many contemporary examples of persons who came from completely frum homes (at least outwardly) and are now not frum. (It is tempting to cite the Gemoras concerning Yochanan Kohein Gadol or Elisha ben Avuha (Acher) but I will eschew the opportunity to point to what certainly is obvious to somebody as learned as the author of this post surely must be, or at least thinks he is).

Perhaps this author suffers from reading, and believing, all those Artscroll biographies. I suggest he read the Making of a Gadol as an antidote. (I never read it, but based on all the criticsm it must be good and accurate).

[Jew]

The comment by Schmilda saying that we should consider the long -term impact of BT is the most horrific thing I've heard in a long time. Do you have love in your heart? You say you teach BT- I would never want to learn anything about Yiddishkeit from you. Imagine how the Jewish supremist community you seem to live in didn't accept BT- I doubt any community would exist for a moment if chozrim b'tshuva in its broad (and true) sense were not to be accepted. Additionally, the comment about the coat and skin sounds nice, but I wonder for how big a percentage of people it holds true...
Although I don't understand why someone would think Chabad is a fringe element- as stated by Evanston Jew.

Although I don't understand why

[MP]

I appreciate both this post and many of the comments, esp. from mevaseretzion, an FFB, and barry. A "kiruv professional," or indeed anyone, who would make such a generalization about nurture at different stages of life may be, at the least, too involved with the forest to care about every tree. I hope that the coat/skin metaphor was expressed only re a specific situation and not meant to be used as a launching pad for a discussion of what happens when people forget "al t'daqdeiq babaqbuq."

[RegularYid]

Aside from the broad brush, being a BT myself, I think there is some validity to many points in the original article. The "broad brush," however, is also a problem - but a more addressable one.


I suspect the article is really focusing on the "never learned in Israel but go to a weekly parsha shiur" crowd, which is one discussion with certain issues and certain solutions...but if its talking about the "several years in Yeshiva" crowd that's another discussion with different issues. Seeing them all as the same, however, prevents the needs of any group being addressed. To group all BT's together is no more helpful than to talk about issues of "the Jews" - as if is some monolithic group.


For example, I am aware of a community that has had an recent influx of stable, normal, healthy, well respected, mainstreamed (but still not talking during davening) Yeshiva/Seminary educated couples which add a lot to that community. Because the communities leaders can't seem to get by its earliest experiences with "early stage flaming type" BTs that caused "stereotypical BT issues", many of the communities leaders don't seem to even recognize that there is as "mainstreamed group" as such that it has unique needs, let alone address the needs of this "mainstreamed BT" group in any systematic way. Once the word "BT" comes in the discussion - they seem to think if there is an issue, it must be something for the purview of the communities' "Kiruv Rabbis" - but not an addressable issue among valid Yidden.

Thus, when a blog talks about some of the BT issues with a broad brush, it has the unintended side effect that somewhere in Brooklyn, little Chani's friends won't come over because her parents are BT - despite that they spent 5 years learning in Kollel and actually know the halacha and ask shilahs - since all BT are only "wearing a coat" and "can't be trusted on halacha." Better we should talk about helpful shiurim, or the differing ways one would reach out to the reform guy in the office verses the young couple next door who just returned from Yeshiva in Israel and is struggling with making their first Bris. Those are different discussions; when we think there the same, we end up talking about neither.

[avakesh]

This has been an interesting, sometimes disturbing, at other time enlightening discussion. I wholeheartedly agree with you. When I published this post on a new and not yet widely read blog, it was by the way of a general comment. I never expected for it to become a phenomenon, a metaphor, or a rallying cry and I never meant for it to be a comprehensive discussion. Now that it attracted this much attention and comment, and after provoking strong emotional comments and personal attack, I learned a lot. A comprehensive consideration, a report, a set of committe recommendations would encompass the topic much better. However, after the kind of storm and reaction that it has provoked, I doubt any committee would want to touch this topic with a 10 foot pole.

[Shimon Sandler]

I've seen many baalei teshuva that have far better midos than ffb's. If someone doesn't have good midos, i don't care how much Torah they've learned...they're not a ben Torah.

And, to address your remark about baalei teshuva wearing a "coat". Ridiculous! Have you forgotten what Chazal say about baalei teshuvah vs. ffb's?

Baalei teshuva have sacrificed and turned their lives upside down for Torah. Most ffb's couldn't turn one day around, let alone their life.

There are no pitfalls of kiruv. Quite a ridiculous post. Although, it is great linkbait;-)

[Steve Brizel]

Forget about dealing with this issue via committee. These issues are best dealt with on an individual basis, as opposed to a communal basis.Instead of fretting about children of BTs being worthy companions for our children, the FFBs should be working on integrating any young BT family into a community via the best means-invite them for a Shabbos meal, invite them to go to a shiur or join a chabura or chavrusa or chesed opportunity etc. I would suggest that the author listen to R Hillel Gross's famous speech as to why BTs make FFBs uncomfortable-it is still a classic and a must listen to after all of these years.

[Shimon Sandler]

Oh, and one more thing...what would you say about converts? Do you know that it says in the Mishnah Torah (RamBam) that it is a mitzvah to love a convert MORE than someone born a Jew!

Kal Vachomer. How wrong is the rationale behind your post, and anyone who has an inkling that you might have a point. This means you Ed!

[Mike S]

The fundamental problem here is the notion that "FFB" or "BT" are useful categories to begin with. Each of these groupings includes very wide variations in level of knowledge, faith, commitment and many different personality types. I know BT who have been learning both daf yomi and b'iyyun gadol for 25 years, and FFB men who would have trouble teitching a simple Rashi in Chumash. I am sure I am not the only one who is in such a position. Furthermore, just because someone grew up in a home that was outwardly observant does not mean he or she was taught, or internalized, yiras shamayim as a youngster; al tistakel b'kankan, ela b'mah sheyesh bo.

The Torah teaches us to respond to people as individuals--not according to stereotypes grounded in our own prejudices.

[RegularYid]

Steve, you wrote “Instead of fretting about children of BTs being worthy companions for our children, the FFBs should be working on integrating any young BT family into a community…” There are several fallacies in that statement:

First, kids playing with their classmates is integrating into the community.

Second, BT children *are* worthy companions; I was addressing the FFB presumption (which you seem to hold) that BT are not worthy companions. But I do understand why one would think that way – as wrong as it may be. If one’s exposure to the BT community is only listening to R Hillel Green’s “famous speech” and takes it out of the context and audience to which it was given, then it would make sense that one would not understand that funny odd things brand new BTs do has little to do with real struggles, observance and knowledge of a BT couple 6-7 years latter.

Third, please don’t reduce a real issue to “fretting.” How do you think a young mother – a person who has been making Pesech since 3 months after she got married because there are no frum parents to go to, has given up her career as non-tnsuis, has been practically disowned because she didn’t attend her sister’s wedding, etc. – feels when she now has explain to her 5 year daughter why friends won’t come over to play? Do you think such a young woman who has made such incredible life changes thinks, “Oh boy, how wonderfully macpid this community is on Kashrus?” Or, “Wow, I see the support that I get from the community?” I assure you, that’s not what she thinks – probably more a sense of betrayal.

And worse, not only did she get kicked in the teeth for her efforts to “mainstream,” but now she has to read her feelings are reduced to “fretting?” Ouch.

[Steve Brizel]

Regular Yid-I think that you missed my point.Chas Ve Shalom that I would even entertain the opinion that you mentioned. As a BT who has been in a major frum community for almost 30 years, I believe that a network of friends, shiurim , chavrusos and a warm shul and friends for your kids are the essential elements of successful integration of any BT. IMO, the peak moment is when your kids follow the Mesorah and you marry off a child to the right chasan or kallah. We should all be doing more helping BTs feel at home in the Torah world-especially because the Mesiras Nefesh by any BT demands that we include them as much as possible. The key is challenging the BTs' enthusiasm via increased Torah knowledge, observance and developing a network of friends,and especially some key friends, who will serve as a surrogate family if a BT is alienated from his or her family of origin.

[Avraham Sonenthal]

He says that baalei teshuva have problems with their Yiddishkeit. So do many FFB people and Rabanim. Maybe even much more problems. Try the ignoring of chareidi child molesters and rampant racism against Sefardim for a start. Talk about hypocritical!